Mark Manson is in Australia at the moment. I remember noting he was coming and wishing I could go to hear him speak.
I’m not a MM devotee but I like his writing and reference his posts often because I can relate. I know the concepts he raises aren’t new or particularly earth-shattering but I like his blunt no-bullshit approach.
A couple of nights ago I was listening to The Three Levels of Self-Awareness for the gazillionith time when it hit me. I mean… I kind of knew this about myself but it was more confronting given my recent self-absorbed pity party.
I think of myself as fairly enlightened and self-aware. If anything I’m too much so (well, self-aware anyway!). I question everything. Do I REALLY feel like this or think this; or do I WANT to be thinking or feeling this; or do I think I SHOULD be thinking or feeling this.
Manson talks about three levels of self-awareness.
He also talks though about the dangers of delving too deeply. He references an ‘apocryphal story’ from 16th-century India in which a young man visits a sage. Invited to ask anything the young man asks what the world rests upon. He’s told an elephant. (And yes, I know… WTF?!) He then asks what the elephant stands upon.
A turtle, says the wise man. What does the turtle rest on, the youngster asks. Another turtle said the old man. And… before the young man can ask the next (obvious) question he’s told… ‘It’s turtles all the way down’.
Manson talks about his propensity to overanalyse and like me (and many others) he second-guesses his thoughts and feelings and continues burrowing down until he’s stuck in some endless loop. But…
“It’s turtles all the way down,” he reminds us.
Basically he’s saying, at a certain point it’s not worth going further. Perhaps some of the Freudians out there with a psychodynamic bent will think we need to get to the bottom of anything and everything we think, feel, say and do. And I’ve always tended to be prone to that school of thought.
However… it means I often get stuck in the navel gazing spiral of doom.
I go around in circles because everything is interrelated. Or there is no answer.
I had a lot of therapy after being anorexic and bulimic as a youngster. I could hypothesise why I developed an eating disorder (which remains to this day via disordered eating), but I accepted years ago that there wasn’t going to be an ‘a-ha’ moment in which the lightbulb went on (or off) and I was ‘suddenly enlightened. I realised there perhaps is no ‘why’ or at least identifiable why. Or perhaps (and I suspect) there are many whys which combined in some sort of perfect storm.
As I write this I realise I often talk about self-awareness… or am conscious of my habits and propensities and yet, don’t seem to be able to do anything about them.
But… I’m going to make an effort to think of the turtles when my thinking or navel gazing starts to spiral.
Turtles all the way down. Draw a line in the sand (in my thinking and my mind) and stop right there.
Are you an overthinker? Do you have a way of reining in thoughts, feelings, or worries before they get out of control?
Linking up with the Midweek Midlife Gals and the Thursday Lovin Life Gang.
July 24, 2019
Hi Deb – Overthinking tends to paralyze us. I’d go for an action to break the overthinking. I also find daily movements and physical activities keep me more balanced. When I do a physical activity, I have to pay attention to what I’m doing. After an hour or more of physical activities, I’m ready to rest 🙂 The good chemicals then work their magic and no overthinking at that point, just feeling good. #MLSTL
July 24, 2019
Yes… I tend to enjoy problem-solving and like when I can come up with a response to something – or an action, but know sometimes I doubt myself too much to know if I’m doing the right thing. In response.
July 26, 2019
I love the idea of using physical movement to get out of your head. Thanks Natalie!
July 26, 2019
Yes… I need to work out how to do that!
July 24, 2019
Oh this resonated with me Deb as I am an award wining overthinker and sometimes I just feel that I don’t want to keep delving because life is too short and maybe I’m shallow sometimes. Thanks for the video insert and also for sharing at #MLSTL. I will now think about you when I see turtles now and drawing a line in the sand. 🙂 Have a great week xx
July 24, 2019
I’d listened to that post quite a few times Sue but there was something the other night that made me stop… the ridiculousness of the story / turtles I guess. Manson actually offers up an example thinking spiral in the post as well which loops him back to his original point so that resonated as well.
July 24, 2019
Turtles all the way down…I love it! I’m an over thinker, but I also have a short attention span which means I overthink for a bit and then move on to the next think I overthink for a bit. Hey, it works for me.
July 24, 2019
Oh, I’m the opposite I think. I obsess about something to death and often still don’t have a resolution!
July 24, 2019
I can relate very much. Yes, I’m a terrible overthinker and can be my own worst enemy. I second guess myself, can let my anxiety catastrophise things, make up stories in my head of what I think people are thinking of me, you name it. I’m aware of it all and though I can’t seem to stop it, I don’t let it stop me doing things. I go places and do things that scare the crap out of me because I refuse to let my own silly mind stop me from experiencing fun things and grabbing hold of new opportunities. It’s not easy though.
July 24, 2019
True Min! I think I’ve mentioned before in a post that – cos I’m a logical person – I try to rationalise with myself if my thinking gets too out of hand (particularly re the catastrophising) but on certain things it’s hard for me to rein it in.
July 24, 2019
I think your “turtles moment” was my “monkeys moment” – you know the “not my circus, not my monkeys” saying about letting other people worry about their own problems. I was such a fixer and worried about so much unnecessary stuff – now it’s just “circus and monkeys and moving right along” – works a treat for me. I don’t think these “moments” cure us but they help redirect our thoughts when we start to spiral, and that’s a great start.
Thanks for linking up with us at MLSTL and I’ve shared on my SM 🙂
July 24, 2019
I definitely worry too much about other people’s stuff Leanne (so do struggle to leave their damned monkeys alone) but at the moment I guess it’s mostly my stuff (my monkeys, my circus) I’m pondering. And mostly around the whole existential crisis I can’t seem to escape…. work vs life vs freedom vs security. Why I want what, when I want what etc…
July 24, 2019
Love those turtles! Great concept. Sometimes I worry a lot over a particular thing. Sometimes it helps when someone else says ‘just let it go’. I like Christie’s comment too about focussing on something else that prevents you from stewing and breaks the circus.
July 24, 2019
Ah yes, and I’m conscious a huge part of my overthinking is because my problems actually probably aren’t that great, so I build them into things bigger than they are. If I really had problems I suspect I’d have to deal with them and not have the luxury to overanalyse them!
July 25, 2019
I do believe we need to start an “Over-thinkers R Us” club. Or is it Over-thinkers Anonymous? “Hi, I’m Pat and I’m an over-thinker.” I wrote down in my journal this morning: “Whatever thoughts you continually think become your beliefs”. I’m trying to make my thoughts positive. I enjoy being an over-thinker most of the time! But I do like the “turtles all the way down” – I had never heard that story. Sometimes you just gotta say “it is what it is” and move on.
July 25, 2019
I’d never heard the story either Pat and must admit I didn’t google it to check re its veracity. It doesn’t make a lot of sense but I liked the obscureness – so weird it appealed to me and I think I could actually bring that saying (perhaps not the image) to mind when I start to loop when stressing or worrying about something.
July 29, 2019
I agree… I like having something to stop the swirl myself as I can definitely start a whole litany of worst case scenarios, what if, and why’s. Since I’m a fan or turtles… this might work.
July 25, 2019
I found this very interesting concept Deb, not having heard of this man or the turtles analogy before. Overthinking is maybe something that comes when we’ve been around for a while. I try hard to rein in my runaway thoughts but it’s not always easy as you say. Thanks for your interesting and thought provoking post #mlstl
July 25, 2019
No I said to Pat, I’d not heard of the story though perhaps you meant Mark Manson? I enjoy his posts particularly because most have an audio version and though I don’t really listen to podcasts (though not sure why) I like listening to his blog posts when I’m in bed trying to sleep. I have some meditation recordings that are more sensible for bedtime but quite like drifting off while thinking…
July 25, 2019
Hi, Deb – I’m brand new to your site and already LOVE it.
I am a ‘recovering over-thinker’. For me, retirement has been a time to lay to rest things that no longer serve. This simple philosophy has been very helpful to me. There is light at the end of the tunnel!
July 26, 2019
Oh, that IS a relief! (And welcome!) I know a lot of older people who worry about a lot of things and it concerns me that – as I’m already a worrier – I’ll just get worse. Although I am more zen about certain things than I once was and better at recognising the stuff I can’t control.
July 25, 2019
Brain dumps help me get it out. I know they’re simple and people seem to scoff at them, but out of my head is better than in.
July 26, 2019
Oh yes, I’m the same Vanessa.
July 25, 2019
I’m an overthinker… I distract myself by running or doing yoga. I’m so much better at both this year 🙂
SSG xxx
July 26, 2019
I’m yet to figure out a way of distracting myself. Food and wine obviously doesn’t work – eek!
July 25, 2019
I tend to overthink. My husband does not. Maybe he already realizes that it’s turtles all the way down and I need to just realize this too!
July 26, 2019
Smart man. (I wonder if women are worse at overthinking!)
July 25, 2019
Great post. I know I am getting so much better re the over thinking and rumination. I have done a LOT of work on myself and attended a psychologist to get help before cancer. Cancer has, in its weird way, helped me learn what I have absolutely no control over. I just have to trust in the treatments and the professionalism of others and do my bit by staying well and looking after my body and mind better. I have been listening to 2 great audio books: they are both recent and I have learned much about the counselling world, those who counsel and are counselled. Fascinating. Titles are: Maybe You Should Talk To Someone by Lori Gottlieb and The Talking Cure by Professor Gillian Straker& Dr Jacqui Winship…oh and if you want to know more about Craving …Dr Judson Brewer is brilliant. Here endeth my book recommendations! Denyse x
July 26, 2019
Ha thanks Denyse. You know I don’t read non-fiction but I’d probably listen to it via audio as I don’t mind podcasts.
And yes, I think being confronted with worst-case scenarios is something that offers one a bit of a wakeup call.
July 26, 2019
I am by nature an over-thinker. I have been working lately on giving other aspects of myself (heart, gut, physical sensations) equal time. Meditation works well for me. I like the phrase “turtles all the way down” as a simple reminder. Thanks for that! #MLSTL
July 26, 2019
I’m a huge believer in ‘gut’ instinct Christie so love that you mention it. I sometimes struggle when I’m overthinking something to death – as I know it means that my head is telling me one thing but that my ‘gut’ (intuition?) is telling me another. Thanks for the reminder!
July 26, 2019
I’m going to come left of centre on this. I think ‘over thinking’ is a symptom of anxiety. Because over thinking and thinking deeply or a lot are very different things. (For the record I also think that EDs are also a symptom of anxiety. but that’s for another time and place). So it’s not that you need to stop thinking and introspection, but you need to know when it is an unhelpful spiral or intrusive thought, and when it is exercising in ideas. As to how to stop it, the physical moment is good (because it shifts the brain and literally breaks the thought – it’s a common anxiety technique). Query it, question it’s authenticity (just because you’re brain tells you something, doesn’t make it true at all) and insist on it’s usefulness. If the thoughts are not useful to you, then move along. Easier said than done, but I think at this point, there are a million things we could think about but we really on have space for the helpful ones – the ones that protect us, the ones that move us along further and the ones that interest us. As you know, I often write what I’m thinking about in the blog to ‘set it free’ and forget about it. #Openslather
July 26, 2019
I agree – I have anxiety and once suffered from Anorexia too. Thank god those times have passed. Never want to revisit. Perhaps that is why I am no longer delving deep?
July 27, 2019
For a very long time (decades) I assumed that if I could identify WHY I became anorexic then I’d go back to the person I was before that. One who overate occasionally but for whom food / their weight didn’t rule their life and who found joy from other things. It took me a long time to realise (accept?) I might never have that answer.
July 27, 2019
Oh yes I very much agree Lydia – that the overthinking is something I only do when anxious / stressed and doubting myself. I suspect I rarely over-ponder if things are going well. (Though perhaps I do get paranoid things will go downhill soon.)
A therapist also suggested your point to me re questioning the authenticity of my thoughts. They commented that I was a logical thinker naturally and should ask myself if there’s any actual evidence for (whatever has entered my head). And yes, I’m not good at letting thoughts / fears / feelings go. x
July 26, 2019
Interesting post and I really like the turtles tale.
I tend to stop myself from getting too mentally involved with deep thinking. That makes me happier for some reason. Not sure why.
July 27, 2019
I’m definitely trying to overthink / worry less about other people and suspect that’s something that’s come with age and experience. But I still do tend to overthink / worry about stuff that is certainly out of my control. Possibly BECAUSE it’s out of my control?
August 1, 2019
I do let my thoughts get carried away, and sometimes it leads to me catastrophising everything, which is, I have come to discover, a flaw in my cognitive behaviour. I am finding it easier to recognise when I am delving too deep and to stop myself. Now I have the vision of turtles associated with that recognition lol. Thanks for sharing this #openslather
August 4, 2019
I keep hoping the ‘turtles’ thing will be an easy reminder to STOP the spiral!